Comments on: Manhattan Declaration: A Call of Christian Conscience http://www.biblicalintegrity.org/blog/2009/11/23/manhattan-declaration-a-call-of-christian-conscience/ Standing for Biblical Truth Fri, 06 Jan 2012 02:07:27 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: The Manhattan Declaration « Truthspeaker’s Weblog http://www.biblicalintegrity.org/blog/2009/11/23/manhattan-declaration-a-call-of-christian-conscience/comment-page-1/#comment-265 The Manhattan Declaration « Truthspeaker’s Weblog Sun, 13 Dec 2009 09:05:02 +0000 http://www.biblicalintegrity.org/blog/?p=290#comment-265 [...] 5. MacArthur, Ibid. 6. For additional reading, see: http://www.biblicalintegrity.org/blog/?p=290 and http://www.biblicalintegrity.org/blog/?p=300 and http://www.biblicalintegrity.org/blog/?p=329 [...] [...] 5. MacArthur, Ibid. 6. For additional reading, see: http://www.biblicalintegrity.org/blog/?p=290 and http://www.biblicalintegrity.org/blog/?p=300 and http://www.biblicalintegrity.org/blog/?p=329 [...]

]]> By: Kevin http://www.biblicalintegrity.org/blog/2009/11/23/manhattan-declaration-a-call-of-christian-conscience/comment-page-1/#comment-241 Kevin Fri, 04 Dec 2009 20:49:55 +0000 http://www.biblicalintegrity.org/blog/?p=290#comment-241 Observing this from England, I only wish the church over here was as strong. It is daily being crushed underfoot by a secularism that is rampant and pervasive. Christians are being persecuted for their faith and some have actually lost their jobs for speaking about God at work! I would be willing to go to prison rather than comprimise my faith, I don't know how many others in this country share the same conviction. Observing this from England, I only wish the church over here was as strong. It is daily being crushed underfoot by a secularism that is rampant and pervasive.

Christians are being persecuted for their faith and some have actually lost their jobs for speaking about God at work!

I would be willing to go to prison rather than comprimise my faith, I don’t know how many others in this country share the same conviction.

]]> By: Hugh Vickery http://www.biblicalintegrity.org/blog/2009/11/23/manhattan-declaration-a-call-of-christian-conscience/comment-page-1/#comment-235 Hugh Vickery Thu, 03 Dec 2009 21:35:32 +0000 http://www.biblicalintegrity.org/blog/?p=290#comment-235 That's exactly it, Dave. We have the Word of God. Why do we need a 4,000-page Tower of Babel? It seems to me that there is always a temptation to try to "do" something more than preach the Word in season and out season, trusting in the power of the Holy Spirit to convict men's hearts and lead them to our Lord Jesus. That’s exactly it, Dave. We have the Word of God. Why do we need a 4,000-page Tower of Babel?

It seems to me that there is always a temptation to try to “do” something more than preach the Word in season and out season, trusting in the power of the Holy Spirit to convict men’s hearts and lead them to our Lord Jesus.

]]> By: Dave James http://www.biblicalintegrity.org/blog/2009/11/23/manhattan-declaration-a-call-of-christian-conscience/comment-page-1/#comment-234 Dave James Thu, 03 Dec 2009 21:24:35 +0000 http://www.biblicalintegrity.org/blog/?p=290#comment-234 Thanks for your comments, Chris. It is clearly a difficult situation and, as you noted, the problem is globally systemic - which one would expect in a lost world. And that it is a lost world is precisely why documents such as this will ultimately have no lasting effect. As I noted in the 3rd post, if the Word of God does not produce the results called for in the Manhattan Declaration, certainly no human work will yield them. (Note: Chris is in full-time ministry with Word of Life in Kenya.) Thanks for your comments, Chris. It is clearly a difficult situation and, as you noted, the problem is globally systemic – which one would expect in a lost world. And that it is a lost world is precisely why documents such as this will ultimately have no lasting effect. As I noted in the 3rd post, if the Word of God does not produce the results called for in the Manhattan Declaration, certainly no human work will yield them.

(Note: Chris is in full-time ministry with Word of Life in Kenya.)

]]> By: Chris Mwalw'a http://www.biblicalintegrity.org/blog/2009/11/23/manhattan-declaration-a-call-of-christian-conscience/comment-page-1/#comment-233 Chris Mwalw'a Thu, 03 Dec 2009 16:30:14 +0000 http://www.biblicalintegrity.org/blog/?p=290#comment-233 Dave, I really don't know what is right in this situation. I await the wisdom of other men of God. However, I do want to comment on this being an American issue - it is not. As they say, "when America sneezes, the world catches cold". Whatever Americans decide for themselves is exported to the rest of the world as "Aid". Pro-abortion activists and other liberals rejoiced all over the world when Barrack Obama won. In my country - Kenya, there were articles in the papers stating how clinics that had been starved of funds by the Bush administration could now reopen or be fully functional. As Americans, you cannot escape world reponsibility. Chris Dave,

I really don’t know what is right in this situation. I await the wisdom of other men of God. However, I do want to comment on this being an American issue – it is not. As they say, “when America sneezes, the world catches cold”. Whatever Americans decide for themselves is exported to the rest of the world as “Aid”. Pro-abortion activists and other liberals rejoiced all over the world when Barrack Obama won. In my country – Kenya, there were articles in the papers stating how clinics that had been starved of funds by the Bush administration could now reopen or be fully functional. As Americans, you cannot escape world reponsibility.

Chris

]]> By: M. R. Callahan http://www.biblicalintegrity.org/blog/2009/11/23/manhattan-declaration-a-call-of-christian-conscience/comment-page-1/#comment-223 M. R. Callahan Tue, 01 Dec 2009 16:24:39 +0000 http://www.biblicalintegrity.org/blog/?p=290#comment-223 Dave, I'm a little late getting in on this discussion. I'm not sure how effective the Manhatten Declaration will be, but it is at least an effort by some God-fearing men to address and confront our present anti-Christ administration and state governments. This is not as much a theological discussion to me, as an American issue, that is national. Our forefathers all believed in God, but certainly were not united by their theology. As to our duty as citizens, it is always more a matter of conscience, rather than our worship and biblical doctrine. Christians should be involved in politics, government life, and cultural matters when our Christian liberties are at stake. Whether we need to adopt this declaration, or any other we need to step up at this time in our history and let our voices be heard. Dave,
I’m a little late getting in on this discussion. I’m not sure how effective the Manhatten Declaration will be, but it is at least an effort by some God-fearing men to address and confront our present anti-Christ administration and state governments.
This is not as much a theological discussion to me, as an American issue, that is national. Our forefathers all believed in God, but certainly were not united by their theology.
As to our duty as citizens, it is always more a matter of conscience, rather than our worship and biblical doctrine. Christians should be involved in politics, government life, and cultural matters when our Christian liberties are at stake.
Whether we need to adopt this declaration, or any other we need to step up at this time in our history and let our voices be heard.

]]> By: Dave James http://www.biblicalintegrity.org/blog/2009/11/23/manhattan-declaration-a-call-of-christian-conscience/comment-page-1/#comment-214 Dave James Sat, 28 Nov 2009 15:23:25 +0000 http://www.biblicalintegrity.org/blog/?p=290#comment-214 Thanks for the reply, Ivan. I am in the process of writing a response, but one that is thoughtful and biblical is difficult, given how polarizing this has become. Parables must be used carefully, because as much as they can be used to teach truth, they can also be used to create straw-man arguments. The problem is exacerbated by mixing the metaphors that are used. By doing so, you can get people to agree with you - but it only works in the specific situation described in the parable and quickly breaks down if one attempts to apply it to something else. So, although I appreciate using illustrations - and I use them all the time in teaching - I think this one is framed in such a way that someone can't disagree with the Manhattan Declaration - without also being guilty of murder by extension. I think that is unfortunate and that a more nuanced parable could be crafted to more accurately reflect the overall situation and why some might be legitimately concerned without condemning them to the label of ultimately being baby-killers. I am trying to very carefully consider this as I write my blog. I have been at it for several hours so far. Thanks for the reply, Ivan.

I am in the process of writing a response, but one that is thoughtful and biblical is difficult, given how polarizing this has become.

Parables must be used carefully, because as much as they can be used to teach truth, they can also be used to create straw-man arguments. The problem is exacerbated by mixing the metaphors that are used. By doing so, you can get people to agree with you – but it only works in the specific situation described in the parable and quickly breaks down if one attempts to apply it to something else.

So, although I appreciate using illustrations – and I use them all the time in teaching – I think this one is framed in such a way that someone can’t disagree with the Manhattan Declaration – without also being guilty of murder by extension. I think that is unfortunate and that a more nuanced parable could be crafted to more accurately reflect the overall situation and why some might be legitimately concerned without condemning them to the label of ultimately being baby-killers.

I am trying to very carefully consider this as I write my blog. I have been at it for several hours so far.

]]> By: IVAN FARMER http://www.biblicalintegrity.org/blog/2009/11/23/manhattan-declaration-a-call-of-christian-conscience/comment-page-1/#comment-212 IVAN FARMER Sat, 28 Nov 2009 09:12:15 +0000 http://www.biblicalintegrity.org/blog/?p=290#comment-212 People are dying!!! It seems some of us have forgotten that fact. If Jesus preached a parable today it might be the good samaritan. Of course in this version a evangelical teacher and a pastor would stop. One was about to help but it looked like a catholic priest was also going to, so he decided God would not want him to associate with heiracy. And he continued on his way. The pastor would stop, preach the Gospel and toss down a tract for the man then goes back to his "church" and give a sermon on how he "reached out" to those in need. Is this the legacy we want to leave for what's left of the next generation. I do not support the ecumenical movement BUT I would personally stand with a catholic, a muslim or even an atheist in opposition to the murder of the next generation. That doesn't mean I support the Koran or the Papacy. As for the new believer or those who are interested in Jesus; I don't think seeing the Church rush in (with any and all who are willing to help) to save innocent lives is confusing. I think that sends a great message it says "We support life to that extent". To quote the late Jerry Falwell (when asked if it was really ok for him to stand with catholics to fight abortion) "I will fight with them today so I can fight against them tomorrow". I think he had his priorities right. The Gospel is our message but it does no good preaching to a dead fetus. This is the reality we live in and for me it is doubly real. When I was unborn many yelled and tried to push my mother to get an abortion (she was poor and already had 3 other kids). She was strong however, and would not yield to the pressure (I am very grateful to her). So I challenge all who read this, with a scenario: You find a man in a pit and you attempt to free him but you are not strong enough. A catholic priest happens by and offers to assist you. Would you really refuse that help because you don't want to give the wrong impression to those who might see you? And what is the value of a million unborn lives? I am glad to see that you have not rushed to judgment Dave. And I hope you seriously consider this as you formulate your view in this matter. People are dying!!! It seems some of us have forgotten that fact. If Jesus preached a parable today it might be the good samaritan. Of course in this version a evangelical teacher and a pastor would stop. One was about to help but it looked like a catholic priest was also going to, so he decided God would not want him to associate with heiracy. And he continued on his way. The pastor would stop, preach the Gospel and toss down a tract for the man then goes back to his “church” and give a sermon on how he “reached out” to those in need. Is this the legacy we want to leave for what’s left of the next generation. I do not support the ecumenical movement BUT I would personally stand with a catholic, a muslim or even an atheist in opposition to the murder of the next generation. That doesn’t mean I support the Koran or the Papacy. As for the new believer or those who are interested in Jesus; I don’t think seeing the Church rush in (with any and all who are willing to help) to save innocent lives is confusing. I think that sends a great message it says “We support life to that extent”. To quote the late Jerry Falwell (when asked if it was really ok for him to stand with catholics to fight abortion) “I will fight with them today so I can fight against them tomorrow”. I think he had his priorities right. The Gospel is our message but it does no good preaching to a dead fetus. This is the reality we live in and for me it is doubly real. When I was unborn many yelled and tried to push my mother to get an abortion (she was poor and already had 3 other kids). She was strong however, and would not yield to the pressure (I am very grateful to her). So I challenge all who read this, with a scenario: You find a man in a pit and you attempt to free him but you are not strong enough. A catholic priest happens by and offers to assist you. Would you really refuse that help because you don’t want to give the wrong impression to those who might see you? And what is the value of a million unborn lives?
I am glad to see that you have not rushed to judgment Dave. And I hope you seriously consider this as you formulate your view in this matter.

]]> By: Pastor Adam Gislason http://www.biblicalintegrity.org/blog/2009/11/23/manhattan-declaration-a-call-of-christian-conscience/comment-page-1/#comment-208 Pastor Adam Gislason Wed, 25 Nov 2009 22:49:26 +0000 http://www.biblicalintegrity.org/blog/?p=290#comment-208 Dave, Thought you might be interested in reading John MacArthur's response to the Manhattan Declaration: http://www.shepherdsfellowship.org/pulpit/Posts.aspx?ID=4444 Dave,

Thought you might be interested in reading John MacArthur’s response to the Manhattan Declaration:

http://www.shepherdsfellowship.org/pulpit/Posts.aspx?ID=4444

]]> By: Craig Houghton http://www.biblicalintegrity.org/blog/2009/11/23/manhattan-declaration-a-call-of-christian-conscience/comment-page-1/#comment-205 Craig Houghton Tue, 24 Nov 2009 01:15:09 +0000 http://www.biblicalintegrity.org/blog/?p=290#comment-205 Dave, To be very brief, our nations (I'm from Canada) need the light of the true gospel to transform individual hearts. Our hope is not in governments to be more "Christian", nor to enforce Christian morals on society, but for the remnant of God's faithful to preach the gospel to all people and allow God's Word to renew our minds. The Catholics do not have the gospel. Joining together for good causes only confuses the simple gospel message to those who may be seeking our LORD. The fundamentalists Muslims would likely not object to anything in this document. A Declaration such as this is just one more step toward inter-faith diologue and further watering down of the gospel that saves. In His Glad Service, Craig Dave,

To be very brief, our nations (I’m from Canada) need the light of the true gospel to transform individual hearts. Our hope is not in governments to be more “Christian”, nor to enforce Christian morals on society, but for the remnant of God’s faithful to preach the gospel to all people and allow God’s Word to renew our minds.
The Catholics do not have the gospel. Joining together for good causes only confuses the simple gospel message to those who may be seeking our LORD. The fundamentalists Muslims would likely not object to anything in this document. A Declaration such as this is just one more step toward inter-faith diologue and further watering down of the gospel that saves.
In His Glad Service,
Craig

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