Glenn Beck’s “Black-Robed Regiment”
Should we be concerned about Glenn Beck’s 8/28 “Restoring Honor” rally in Washington?
I have watched Glenn Beck almost every day since he has been in the 5 o’clock slot on the FoxNews channel and I agree with virtually everything that he says about the fact that we have been witnessing the decline of the principles and values upon which this country was founded. I tend to agree with much of his analysis as to why and how this has happened. I also agree that returning the Constitution to its rightful place in the legislative and judicial realms of government, as well as “Restoring Honor” would be a good place to start to get things turned around.
As a patriotic American I can stand with the half-a-million people who were present at the 8/28 rally on Saturday to let it be known that the majority of the citizens in the United States are not happy about the current state of affairs. And I could stand with Glenn Beck if we were only being called upon to exercise our rights as outlined in the Constitution with the goal of restoring integrity and honor to the governance of our country.
Many liberal pundits and politicians are calling Beck a radical right-wing hate-monger who is leading a bunch of angry, old, white, disgruntled, leftovers from the McCain / Palin run for the presidency. The last thing I would want is to be identified with either those who are saying such things or the caricature they have used to cynically portray the majority of decent Americans in this country.
However, just as with the Manhattan Declaration last fall, this issue has been taken out of the political, civil and legal realm, and brought squarely into the religious / theological realm. This presents a serious problem that seems to be lost on many who should be concerned, including a significant number of evangelical leaders who joined him on his program on Friday and who were standing with him on the platform this Saturday. Through his radio and TV programs, and now with the immeasurably successful “Restoring Honor” rally, Glenn Beck has arguably become the single most influential religious leader in America.
It is true that Mr. Beck frequently talks about the need for personal faith in Jesus Christ. He regularly uses the language of conservative evangelicalism. He has devoted entire shows to decry the liberal gospel of collective salvation through social justice reforms and its cousin, Liberation Theology.
However, Glenn Beck is first and foremost a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the Mormons. He often speaks about his Mormon faith and how much it means to him. And he credits his recovery from a life of self-destruction through alcohol and an immoral lifestyle to the faith he found in the Mormon church. He was baptized into the Mormon church in 1999 by his radio talk show co-host and close friend Pat Gray.(1)
Now, even though he has been around for awhile, in our celebrity-driven culture, Glenn Beck has become an overnight sensation with superstar status in his new role as a spokesman for many (though certainly not all) religious conservatives. He has eclipsed presidential candidate and fellow-Mormon, Mitt Romney, and is possibly now more influential than Sarah Palin (who is known for her open identification as a born-again evangelical Christian). Again, this is a serious problem precisely because he is on a faith-based mission.
Beck has repeatedly insisted that the Restoring Honor rally was to be decidedly non-political in nature – and he worked hard to make sure that happened. He fervently asked his radio and television audiences to leave their signs at home and to not expect that this would be a pre-election campaign rally:
First of all: No signs. Don’t bring your signs. Bring your hearts. Bring your open minds. That’s it. Bring your kids. Your kids are important. If you bring a sign, you’re going to be disappointed. No signs.(2) (click here for transcript)
But more importantly, he pulled together a group of religious leaders to make sure this gathering was understood to be explicitly religious. For those that might doubt that the goal was to make Restoring Honor about a return to religion, on Monday’s program, Mr. Beck explicitly said that the whole thing was entirely about “God and faith.” He also believes that God gave a clear sign of his approval and blessing on Saturday:
I want to show you first [the] miracle that happened at…9:59, what happened was there was a flock of geese that ran. It was a flyover, if you will. Someone caught it on tape. Here’s the flyover. This was happening just as the opening music was starting. We wanted to have a flyover, but you can’t fly over in the District of Columbia. It was perfect coordination and perfect timing. Coincidence? Maybe. I think it was God’s flyover.
It was not supposed to happen. We couldn’t get a flyover. We couldn’t even get anybody dressed in a military uniform to present the flag. We tried for almost a year. We couldn’t get it done.
Thank God we had our flyover. (3) (transcript)
The concept to ultimately make this a religious rally can be clearly seen in an exchange months ago between Glenn Beck and historian David Barton on the April 29 Glenn Beck Show:
Beck: So I want to talk to you a little bit about something else you and I talked about off-air for a while and that is the Black Robe Brigade.
Barton: Yes.
Beck: And America, I’m going to ask you now if you have your pastor or your priest or your rabbi, whoever it is, tell them to turn on the show or take down this information because this is important.
You have to do this. The media is not going to it. The government is not going to do it. The parties are not going to do it. They don’t care. They’re about power and control.
If you care about the Constitution, this is what you have to do.
Tell me about the Black Robe Brigade. What were they? Who were they?
Barton: The Black Brigade or Black Regiment were the preachers, because they wore black robes. Black preachers, white preachers — they all wore black probes. And the British specifically blamed the preachers for the American Revolution. That’s where the title “Black Regiment” came from. One of the British officials talked about that.
It’s interesting that the British so hated what the preachers — they claim if it hadn’t been for the preachers, America would still be a happy British colony. So they blamed it on the preachers.
When they come to America, they start to decimating churches. They went to New York City. Nineteen churches — they burned 10 to the ground. They went across Virginia burning churches. They went across New Jersey burning churches. Because they blamed these preachers.(4) (transcript)
On Friday night, at the Kennedy Center, Glenn Beck hosted a program called “Divine Destiny,” attended by approximately 1900 religious leaders who were personally invited to the event. On a section of his website devoted to FAQs about Divine Destiny, we find the following:
Glenn Beck’s Divine Destiny is an eye-opening evening at the historic Kennedy Center in Washington, D.C that will help heal your soul. Guided by uplifting music, nationally-known religious figures from all faiths will unite to deliver messages reminiscent to those given during the struggles of America’s earliest days. The event will leave you with a renewed determination to look past the partisan differences and petty problems that fill our airwaves and instead focus our shared values, principles and strong belief that faith can play an essential role in reuniting the country.(5)
On Friday evening, Mr. Beck was introduced by Pat Gray:
This building was [filled] by invitation [to] some of the best and bravest pastors, priests, rabbis, clerics in the country. Tomorrow, we will announce the beginning of the Black-Robed Regiment. And here is what’s amazing, here’s what’s amazing, they keep saying this is a political event, and it is not. It is not a political event at all. I’m convinced that not just this event, but this time period is going to be remembered as the beginning of the great awakening in America.(6)
So, it is clear that Glenn Beck’s intent was to personally recreate a Black-Robed Regiment to lead the way in “restoring honor” to our country. On yesterday’s (8/30/2010) program which was devoted to discussing the many important aspects of the rally, one of the main focal points was the support and platform presence of his “Black Robe Regiment.” There were 240 religious leaders, standing arm-in-arm in a display of unity with one another, with the man who had pulled them together for this explicitly religious event and with God. They were there because of their desire to take a stand for truth and a return to integrity and honor in leading this nation, which is a good thing. But they were also there because of their conviction that the only solution to the problem and the only hope for the nation is a return to God – and therein lies the problem, because it begs the question, “Which God?”
As you listen to Glenn Beck and read the many forums where this is being discussed across the internet, you will find that what happened this weekend is being celebrated and hailed as a true breakthrough because of the diverse religious views that these 240 men and women represent. The group consisted of Protestant pastors (including evangelicals like John Hagee), Catholic priests, Jewish rabbis and Muslim imams. (I have searched everywhere on the internet for several hours trying to find a listing of these 240 religious leaders, without success. If you find anything, please let me know.)
These leaders represent such divergent views of God that we cannot think that this is a call to rally together under the banner of the God of the Bible. Allah is certainly not the God of the Bible. Jews emphatically deny that Jesus is the God of the Bible. Catholics, who are still bound by the decrees of the Council of Trent, are obligated to view evangelicals as heretics if they wish to remain true to the official teachings of the Church.
And then there is the god of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
In her weekly e-update, “Understanding the Times,” which came out today (8/31/2010), Jan Markell (Olive Tree Ministries) writes the following:
The theme of the Friday gathering of spiritual leaders and the Saturday rally was an encouragement to turn back to God. The not-so-subtle theme was “many faiths, but one God.”
I believe many conservative Christians would have been relieved if Glenn had not brought out Mormon doctrine that very few are familiar with. He stated at the Saturday event that the American Indians are the “chosen people” — blatant Mormon doctrine. The crowd applauded in approval. You can view that here at the 4:30 mark.
He stated — and has affirmed this on his radio and television programs — that God is the only answer. While much was troublesome last weekend, who else is sticking their neck out saying we have to turn back to God and gathering hundreds of thousands in the process? It would be wonderful if Franklin Graham or even Joel Rosenberg could attract a half-million people and deliver the true gospel. We aren’t quite there yet. Again, by default, we defer to Glenn Beck.
The weekend opened on Friday night, Augsust 27, with Glenn’s “Divine Destiny” program which again, is straight out of Mormonism. Many participants have implied, or blatantly stated, that Glenn is a “saved Mormon” or on the way to becoming one.
Leading up to the statement referred to by Jan Markell above, beginning at the 3:01 mark, Beck says the following:
The story of America is the story of humankind. Five thousand years ago, on the other side of the planet, God’s Chosen People were led out of bondage by a guy with a stick, who was talking to a burning bush. Man first began to recognize God and God’s law. The Chosen People listened to the Lord. At the same time those things were happening, on this side, on this land, another group of people were gathered here and they, too, were listening to God.
How these two people came together, again, happened because people were listening to God. They didn’t have the right to worship God the way they saw fit. So, they got down on their knees – and they didn’t want to come to this land – they just did because they thought that’s what God was telling them to do. And with malice toward none, they got into their boats and they came.
God’s Chosen People, the Native Americans and the Pilgrims (applause).
As Markell noted, this is pure Mormon doctrine. The following is from an article in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism on the Brigham Young University library website:
The Book of Mormon, published in 1830, addresses a major message to Native Americans. Its title page states that one reason it was written was so that Native Americans today might know “what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers.”
The Book of Mormon tells that a small band of Israelites under Lehi migrated from Jerusalem to the Western Hemisphere about 600 B.C. Upon Lehi’s death his family divided into two opposing factions, one under Lehi’s oldest son, laman (see Lamanites), and the other under a younger son, Nephi 1 (see Nephites).
During the thousand-year history narrated in the Book of Mormon, Lehi’s descendants went through several phases of splitting, warring, accommodating, merging, and splitting again. At first, just as God had prohibited the Israelites from intermarrying with the Canaanites in the ancient Promised Land (Ex. 34:16; Deut. 7:3), the Nephites were forbidden to marry the Lamanites with their dark skin (2 Ne. 5:23; Alma 3:8-9). But as large Lamanite populations accepted the gospel of Jesus Christ and were numbered among the Nephites in the first century B.C., skin color ceased to be a distinguishing characteristic. After the visitations of the resurrected Christ, there were no distinctions among any kind of “ites” for some two hundred years. But then unbelievers arose and called themselves Lamanites to distinguish themselves from the Nephites or believers (4 Ne. 1:20). (7) (click here for article)
On Sunday, John McTernan posted the following on his blog:
My heart is very heavy as I write this. I attended two events led by Glenn Beck. Friday night, I was at the Kennedy Center for a Glenn Beck special. He had a gospel choir singing with a mixed group of speakers. Beck was freely talking about the “LORD.” There were speakers from other religions. He was talking about the need for a spiritual revival, who can argue about that! The problem is that Beck is a Mormon with a different Jesus.
There were several prayers offered at this event and NONE were made in the name of Jesus. I was deeply grieved after I left.
On Saturday, I attended the huge rally. If it was just political, I could accept Beck as a leader; however, it went way beyond that. I am not questioning anything about Beck’s character or motives. What I am deeply grieved about is that this was not led by the real church of the Lord Jesus Christ. Is America in such desperate spiritual condition, that masses of Christians will follow a Mormon for spiritual revival? (8) (click here for his blog)
Again, just as in the Manhattan Declaration, Glenn Beck is calling people of all faiths to come together “in the spirit of God” – and in keeping with Mormon doctrine, he is specifically calling together what Mormons believe are the three strands of God’s Chosen People (Jews, Christians and Native Americans) under the leadership of Beck’s new Black-Robed Regiment. Beginning at 4:40, he introduces the following guests who represent these three groups:
I would like to introduce you to Rabbi Daniel Lapin (applause).
This is John and Kyla Ward. They are direct descendants of the Native Americans that met the Pilgrims on the shores as they arrived. (applause)
And Pastor Paul Jehle is a direct descendant from those that arrived on the Mayflower.
To restore America, to restore honor, we’ve got to start at the beginning and look at the pattern, when people came together, of different faiths, in the spirit of God, and the first thing they did was pray together.
At this point, Pastor Jehle delivers the opening prayer for the rally in unmistakable evangelical terms, clearly naming Jesus Christ as the “Redeemer” and the “King of Kings and Lord of Lords,” closing with the words “in Christ’s name, amen.”
However, we have seen this before. Shortly after the Manhattan Declaration was published, Governor Mike Huckabee commented that perhaps it could be considered as comparable to Luther’s 95 Theses. And concerning the Divine Destiny event and the Restoring Honor rally, following the sentiment expressed in Pat Gray’s introduction at the Kennedy Center, NaplesNews.com published an article with the title, “The Fifth Great Awakening: The Restoring Honor Rally in Washington, D.C.” (The author, Edward Wimberley is a fairly well-known “educator and Presbyterian minister“):
The Second Great Awakening occurred almost a century later and resulted in the emergence of the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints (the Mormons), The Seventh Day Adventist Church, The Advent Christian Church as well as the dramatic expansion of Baptists and Methodists throughout the Western States. The Third Great Awakening spanned the 1850’s through the early 1900’s and produced the “Social Gospel Movement,” Christian Science, the Holiness Denominations, and the Nazarenes. The leaders of this era included Mary Baker Eddy, Dwight L. Moody, and evangelist William Ashley “Billy” Sunday.
How is it that the emergence of the Mormon church and the rise of the Social Gospel Movement can be seen as contributing factors in the Great Awakenings? Do these not instead have all the marks of being dark spiritual opposition to the broad work of the Spirit of God at specific times in this country’s history? Both movements have contributed to incredible confusion and the deception of millions of people including an alarming number from among those who would consider themselves evangelicals. That Mormonism is once again contributing to spiritual confusion, while pulling in evangelicals, is evidenced by the following comments from someone who was at the “Restoring Honor” rally:
I was actually at the 8-28 event in DC… It WAS an evangelical Christian event. Beck made some ecumenical noises up-front and I was prepared to be very disappointed, but almost every single speaker, other than Beck…and all of the major ones, were un-apologetically evangelical Christians. Their words on faith carried far more weight than Beck’s. I heard “Jesus, Lord and Savior” or similar terms through the whole program.
I really don’t understand Beck’s spiritual journey. I think that he would have considered himself a terribly back-slidden Christian 15 years ago when he was a raging alcoholic who’s life was out of control. He turned to Mormonism, found his way out of the bottle and rebuilt his life. He clearly is comfortable with evangelical Christians…he surrounds himself with them.(9)
It was an “evangelical Christian event?”
The Naples News article continues:
In a very real sense, the nation has drifted afar from its religious and patriotic foundations.
However, the spiritual drift of the nation ceased on Saturday October 28, 2010 on the National Mall between the Washington and Lincoln Memorials. On that day, hundreds of thousands of Americans from all walks of life and from virtually every region and ethnic community gathered together to recommit to the task of restoring America’s honor by reaffirming an individual commitment to faith, duty, honor and country.
This profound contemporary spiritual renewal was ushered in by the most unlikely of leaders, a recovering alcoholic, high-school graduate, and college dropout with an unsavory past. Moreover, it was predominantly (though not exclusively) a “Christian” renewal prophetically introduced by a Mormon layman.
The following is from a December 23, 2007 interview with Joel Osteen by Chris Wallace on Fox News Sunday,
Wallace: And what about Mitt Romney? And I’ve got to ask you the question, because it is a question whether it should be or not in this campaign, is a Mormon a true Christian?
Osteen: Well, in my mind they are. Mitt Romney has said that he believes in Christ as his savior, and that’s what I believe, so, you know, I’m not the one to judge the little details of it. So I believe they are.
And so, you know, Mitt Romney seems like a man of character and integrity to me, and I don’t think he would — anything would stop me from voting for him if that’s what I felt like.
Wallace: So, for instance, when people start talking about Joseph Smith, the founder of the church, and the golden tablets in upstate New York, and God assumes the shape of a man, do you not get hung up in those theological issues?
Osteen: I probably don’t get hung up in them because I haven’t really studied them or thought about them. And you know, I just try to let God be the judge of that. I mean, I don’t know.
I certainly can’t say that I agree with everything that I’ve heard about it, but from what I’ve heard from Mitt, when he says that Christ is his savior, to me that’s a common bond.
I am deeply concerned that Mormonism may now be on a fast-track to be accepted into mainstream Christianity, and perhaps even Evangelicalism. That this is even conceivable is very troubling. Returning to Jan Markell’s article, she notes the following concerning the teachings of Mormonism:
* God was born and raised on another planet.
* He has a harem of wives.
* They produce spirit-babies that are sent to earth; there they gain bodies and earn sainthood.
* Jesus is the brother of Lucifer.
* Jesus is the chosen/elected savior by a council of gods from other worlds.
* America is the promised land, not Israel. The holy city is Independence, Missouri, not Jerusalem. Jesus’ latter-day agenda is to return to Missouri.
* America’s founding fathers were “spirit babies” who created a “sacred Constitution.”
* The U.S. Constitution is as sacred as the Book of Mormon. In the latter days, it will be under siege and will be saved by Mormons. Thus, we must “reclaim America” to save the Constitution and usher in a genuine age of Mormon leadership. They want to build a Mormon kingdom on earth, similar to modern day Dominionists/Kingdom Now proponents within Christianity. Founder Joseph Smith had a socialistic philosophy and wished to have a society that shared things in common.
Markell’s last point is referring to something I just became aware of late last week when ABI co-founder Jimmy DeYoung alerted me to what is known in Mormonism as “The White Horse Prophecy.” The “white horse” in the prophecy by Joseph Smith is a reference to the first horse of the four horses of the Apocalypse.
An article about The White Horse Prophecy can be found on the pro-Mormon website, FAIR (The Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research) at this link. According to the prophecy, someone within the Mormon church is going to appear on the national stage to rescue the Constitution – in conjunction with a group of people that Joseph Smith identified as the “red horse.”
On today’s Glenn Beck Show, he emphatically reiterated that his goal is not to be a religious leader. Yet, a few minutes later, he also remarked that he believes we are now witnessing the 3rd Great Awakening— the first of which, he noted, was largely led by George Whitefield. And more than once (including again today) I have heard him infer or even state that this movement—this new awakening—is something that has started with him and which he is leading.
Even though I question whether or not another Great Awakening is actually underway, that someone with Mormon convictions could suggest that they might be at its forefront should be of deep concern to evangelicals. However, that a Mormon could be enthusiastically endorsed and embraced as such a leader by a significant number of conservative evangelicals seems to say far more about the state of the church in the United States than it does about Mr. Beck.
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1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restoring_Honor_rally, accessed 8/31/2010.
2. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,600310,00.html, accessed 8/31/2010.
3. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,600442,00.html, accessed 8/31/2010.
4. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,591785,00.html, accessed 8/31/2010.
5. http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/198/44012/, accessed 8/31/2010.
6. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restoring_Honor_rally#cite_note-32, accessed 8/31/2010.
7. LSD Beliefs, accessed 8/31/2010.
8. http://johnmcternansinsights.blogspot.com/, accessed 8/31/2010.
9. From an email to an acquaintance of mine
For every testimony like this, my experience over the last 25 years tells me that there are at least 10 in which people had first become aware of their sinful unworthiness to stand before a holy God.
It does raise the question, as I noted before, what was it that you were saved from?
I am grieved (and have been for the past 40 years) that Christendom has been so confounded and confused with lousy theology, lousy hermeneutics and lousy eschatology. There are thousands of divisions and hardly any two can agree on much of anything. This dismal state of affairs kept me a Roman Catholic for about 15 years while a wandered through the theological mine-field of modern evangelicalism. To make matters worse, the Church has been asleep at the switch for the past century. We have been taught that “politics is dirty” and “no sense polishing the brass on a sinking ship” and “the law of God is done away with” other nonsense until we have awaken in a land our fathers conquered for us. No wonder an imposter like Beck can go so far. He knows what he believes and is not afraid to say it with clarity and without apology. Maybe he will be God’s instrument to shame his true Bride into true repentance. I steered clear of protestant churches for many years because I found them mostly filled with ignorant, feministic and down-right cowardly men. Thankfully I have observed the beginnings of an awakening that is happening basically in the backwaters of Christendom but not in the “mainstream.” My faith and trust is God alone, so I sleep well knowing he is working out all things for our good and his glory according to his perfect will.
Living happy and free in Canaan Land.
Steven James
http://www.truthinliving.org
I have been viewing Glenn Beck’s TV program for the past year. At no time during that year has he ever promoted his Mormon faith. In fact, Glenn has often stated the opposite. He has stated that it’s not about following a religion or rituals, it’s about having a personal relationship with God. I am a Christian. I believe that Glenn Beck is a Christian, who is inspired by God, to do His will. I attended the rally at the Lincoln Memorial on 8/28 with my son and my son in-law because we believed that God had placed it on our hearts to attend, to make a stand for restoring Faith, Hope, Charity, Truth, Honor, God, and Godly principles in our great nation. I did not attend the rally for Glenn Beck. I attended the 8/28 Rally for God. If one believes that the United States was divinely created, then the re-establishment of the Black Robed Regiment should excite, inspire and unite Godly people to stand up and do Godly things for this unique country, regardless of denomination. The 8/28 rally focused on honoring those people in our community who make our country great, by their daily actions, exemplifying Faith, Hope, and Charity. Jesus was mentioned several times at the 8/28 rally, but for those people disappointed that Jesus wasn’t mentioned enough need remember that the rally wasn’t just for Christians. The divinely created Bill of Rights, guaranties the freedom for all religions, which God desires to be so. He gives us freewill to choose the right path, in our own time. We all have different beliefs and our founding fathers knew God’s desire for us to give our hearts to Him freely, individually not collectively. This is why Glenn Beck believes we must preserve these rights and freedoms in our country.
Michael,
Thank you for your thoughtful email.
While it is true that Mr. Beck has not strongly and incessantly done so, I’m not sure it is accurate to say that Mr. Beck has never promoted his Mormon faith, because he has on several occasions. (Although, I suppose it could be debated on what constitutes promoting something.) He has certainly discussed it enough that a lot of people know that he is a Mormon.
However, whether he has promoted it is beside the point. My article was not really about or against Glenn Beck per se. It was about the Black-Robed Regiment – and the evangelical Christians who are standing with him in his capacity as a religious leader – whether or not that is acknowledged.
As I note in the article, on the Monday after the rally on his program he stated that this is all about “faith and God” – which begs the question that I raise in my article, “which God.” The God of the Bible and the god of Mormonism are not the same – and the Jesus Christ of Mormonism is not the Jesus Christ of the Bible.
I fully agree with the need to preserve our rights and freedom. However, it is not appropriate to suggest that the Bill of Rights was “divinely created.”
My concern now is what it was a month ago and is heightened by the fact that he is now promoting emulating Gandhi, who for all the goodness that Mr. Beck is now attributing to him was a worshiper of millions of false gods. How can Christians join with him in an endeavor that is all about “faith and God” when in that faith he joins those who worship other gods. In the long run, this is going to become very problematic for Christians because he has not yet arrived at where he will be theologically a year from now – and it is about theology. In the end, everything is about theology – including Faith, Hope and Charity.
David,
There are two groups of Mormons. One is a conservative group based out of Salt Lake City, Utah and the other is a radical faction based out of Independence, Missouri. The conservative group from Utah, follows Biblical teachings.
I have been watching Glenn Beck’s show every night for the last year. At no time during that year did Glenn give me any reason to believe he doesn’t follow the teachings of the Bible.
I believe that Glenn Beck is a Christian. He promotes his Christian beliefs. This is evident in Glenn’s actions. On his show, he surrounds himself with Christian guests. If he didn’t believe in Christianity, he wouldn’t be promoting it. Glenn Beck has emphasized on his program that America is about people helping people, tithing, and recognizing that we get our rights and our blessings from God. All of what Glenn states on his program can be found in the Bible. Glenn has stated many times on his program that we shouldn’t blindly take what he says as fact and that we should do our own research to find the truth. Your concern about people blindly following Glenn Beck’s belief system, implies that people (Christians) can’t think for themselves. We are all children of God. Instead of judging what you don’t know about Glenn, maybe you should embrace what you do know about him.
I admire and am thankful for Glenn Beck taking the initiative to restore God and Godly principles in the USA. He is gutsy, and is standing up for what he believes is right. He is uniting religious leaders of different faiths and denominations to restore purpose and to establish order back in this country.
Lies and deception have plagued our great nation. Glenn is voicing what many of us feel and believe but have been afraid to say. I believe he has woken the sleeping giant.
Glenn doesn’t profess to be a religious leader. He is a person who knows that one can’t convince people to change with mere words, in a world of lies and deceit. The hearts of people must change and this change will only come when people understand the truth. Only God can change people’s hearts. This is why restoring God in this country is necessary.
I don’t believe it is important who delivers the truth. I think it’s more important to focus on the message and not the messenger. God loves and welcomes all into his kingdom.
You doubt that the United States was a divinely created nation. I believe it was divinely created. The early settlers left Europe because of religious persecution, in search of a land where they could freely worship God. The United States was established with God as its Center/Focus. Our founding fathers created our great governing documents; the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and its first 10 amendments, the Bill of Rights, pursuing divine guidance and inspiration with every word that was written. God and Biblical principles was of foremost importance in the establishment of United States, as evident in the essential theme throughout our governing documents, “In God We Trust” printed on our money, God and Biblical symbols inscribed on our government buildings, “One Nation Under God” in our pledge of allegiance, each session of congress is commenced with a prayer, “God Bless America” is the song of choice at our national pastime and the Bible is used to be sworn on, in our judicial system.
There is no other country in the world that has established itself as a republic, with a platform recognizing God as our creator, having been blessed with wealth and prosperity, for so long. This great nation shows more generosity and compassion than any other in history.
I watched Glenn’s program the evening he spoke about Gandhi. I take it that you didn’t, otherwise you would have heard him speaking on the topic of peaceful protests. He stated that it was our right to voice our objection to government policies and legislation, when we believe them to be wrong. He went on to say that we should conduct these protests in a peaceful manner. He stated that violent protests will always go against popular support. He used the example of Gandhi’s peaceful approach to protesting and highlighted how effective it was. He also used Martin Luther King (MLK) and Jesus Christ as other examples of people who were very effective with peaceful protesting. Glenn said we should be more like Gandhi, MLK, and Jesus Christ in our approach to addressing our discord with our government.
Glenn Beck professes to be a Libertarian. Initially, I struggled to understand how a libertarian could be a Christian, considering how the Bible teaches that Christians should help the needy (Widows, Orphans, neighbors, etc.). It makes perfect sense for Christians to be libertarian. The Bible teaches that God gives us a free will. God gives us freedom to choose right from wrong. God also states that we need to tithe our money, to acknowledge that He owns it all. God also states that we need to be good stewards of our finances. The government is continuously passing legislation that restricts our rights and freedoms. Politicians say it’s because of the ever changing world that we live in. I believe it is purely the power corrupting politicians – power that we have let our government representatives slowly take away from us (We The People). Government is forever making laws that restrict what we do, what we consume and what we say. These representatives may believe that this is the right thing for us, but our Godly Founding Fathers knew better. They respected God’s wisdom. They knew that God’s design was the perfect design.
We need to be good stewards of our money. No one spends our money more wisely than we do. The government uses our money frivolously, for example, to support a large bureaucracy, lavish living, useless grant programs, studying abstract subjects, and entitlement programs, which cause people to be dependent on government. As a middle class American, I pay nearly 35% in taxes. I can honestly say that my tax dollar is not spent helping those I choose to help. I believe it should be people helping people not government helping people. God wants people to give with a good heart, and not forcibly by government legislation.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and allowing me to share mine with you.
I pray that God gives you peace and puts your mind at ease, with respect to Mr. Beck.
Michael, thank you for your email.
The Mormons, both incarnations, have unbiblical teaching. Of course, they would argue differently – but it is demonstrably true.
I am not Mr. Beck’s judge concerning whether or not he is a Christian or not. He certainly considers himself one – and in broad “world-religion terms” – anyone who claims to be a Christian is – but not necessarily a Christian in a biblical sense. These are two vastly different things.
I never suggested that people are following Beck blindly. Quite the opposite. Many are following him because they believe he is promoting Christianity – and in many ways he is promoting Christian values – but those, too, are not the same thing.
I did hear the entire program concerning Gandhi.
God is in control – so in that sense it is divinely created. But it was not created in the same way nor for the same purpose as when he created Israel.
The reason the nation has prospered is quite simply because God’s way does work. So, when things are done according to the Lord’s wisdom, to that degree anyone or group will experience success.
I have stated repeatedly that I do agree with most of what Mr. Beck says. However, despite his protests to the contrary, he is a leader in a movement – and using his words, “It is about faith and God.” That makes him a religious leader by default.
However, in the past couple of weeks, he has largely gone a different direction.
Dave
Dave-
Just a thought about the Beck controversy… We are not really talking about differences in theology here. The point is not Mormonism vs. Evangelical Christianity, it is simply a question of whether or not we will return to the values that founded this country and made her great.
There were many doctrinal differences between the Founding Fathers (Christians/Deists/etc.),not to mention the political differences they had (Slavery was but one.) The important thing to remember here is that (as B.Franklin said,)”Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters.”
Though the Founders had sharp theological and political differences, they knew they had to work together or the country could not be born.
Our country is facing perhaps the most serious political threat it has ever faced. There are many domestic enemies who want to socialize our system. If we do not return to the values our Founders put in place and stay true to the U.S. Constitution, our freedoms will disappear.
Don’t compromise your theology but let us find those things that bind us together from a moral perspective and work to preserve the Union. We do not have to agree on theology to work together. So what if Glenn Beck is a Mormon. If God could use a donkey to speak to a wayward prophet in the Bible, why can’t he use a reformed alcoholic to bring moral people together to save our country from corrupt politicians on both sides of the isle?
We are not electing a new Pope here. But we just may be able to save the USA from destruction. I believe God is working outside our “box” and we need to listen to Him.
Blessings to all!
Charles
Charles, Thanks for your comments.
In my reply to Michael, I wrote the following: “I have stated repeatedly that I do agree with most of what Mr. Beck says. However, despite his protests to the contrary, he is a leader in a movement – and using his words, “It is about faith and God.” That makes him a religious leader by default.”
I understand and agree with the sentiment of your thoughts. And if this were only about the values upon which this country was founded, then there wouldn’t be a problem.
However, those values a based in a Judeo-Christian ethic / worldview. And we don’t live in that world anymore. We live in a vastly different pluralistic society where Christianity is increasingly belittled and under siege. And we are being rallied by a man who seems to believe in a god that is vastly different that than the God of the founders – even if some were deistic or actually deists.
The object of Beck’s call of return has been clearly and repeatedly “God.” However, his view of God (if the god of Mormonism) – and how that translates into a worldview – is vastly different than the majority of those rallying around him in this call – and it is even different within his Black-Robed regiment, which includes Muslim Imams.
It is Mr. Beck who has chosen to make it a theological issue. And that is the problem. He could have chosen a different path. An example of someone who has generally kept it at the “values” level – rather than the theological level is Sarah Palin. (By saying this I’m not suggesting whether or not I support her.) That is the rhetorical path, which, if Beck had chosen it, would not have evoked a response from me and many others who share the same concern.
Dave
Dave-
Thank you for your reply (November 15, 2010 at 6:02 pm). I just wanted to inject something more into this discussion (which, by the way, I applaud you for sponsoring. I think it is healthy when done in a respectful manner).
I am sure you are familiar with Dr. James Garlo, a pastor in San Diego who worked hard on the Prop 8 issue in CA to defend marriage. Reluctantly, at first he did not want to work with the Mormons who offered their help because, “My disagreement with Mormon belief is substantial.” This is too long of a story to even summarize here, but he says, “I suspect that the LDS church provided the lion’s share of the workers.” Garlo said they even promised to refrain from proselytizing and they kept that promise.
As he stated to the Wall Street Journal and the LA Times; “As evangelicals and Mormons, we are not theological brothers and sisters. But we are friends and neighbors. And on that basis we work together to defend marriage. Most of us are familiar with the term “co-belligerency,” which means that people with diametrically opposing views on certain critical issues work together. It was in that role that [we] came together.”
As a side note to anyone who may be interested to learn more, a good book on understanding the harmony/disharmony between Mormons and Evangelicals is, ‘How Wide the Divide; A Mormon and an Evangelical in Conversation.’ It is authored by a Denver Seminary professor and a BYU professor. Very enlightening.
Additionally, Dr. Garlo asks, “But what about Glenn’s Mormonism, many ask? That is a legitimate question. Glenn was raised… as a Catholic…became a heavy drinker, destroying… his life. … the Mormons [helped him] turn around his life. My personal read-out would be that Glenn’s Mormon ties are not profoundly deep rooted. I simply do not see evidence that he has deep Mormon theological motifs.”
“[As] to Glenn’s spiritual condition… I have listened and watched very carefully [and] interviewed several people who have… talked very specifically with him regarding his own personal salvation. Glenn unequivocally… relies on the atonement of Jesus on the cross for forgiveness for his sins… Few people use the term atonement. Glenn did.”
Additionally after one of Glenn’s TV shows, where he laid out the gospel using his well known blackboard, James Robison told Dr. Garlo, “Richard Land [Southern Baptist] just called me and said he never expected to hear the Gospel so clear on secular television.”
“I have interviewed persons who have talked specifically with Glenn about his personal salvation – persons extremely well known in Christianity – and they have affirmed (using language evangelicals understand), “Glenn is saved.” He understands receiving Christ as savior. At the risk of throwing a verbal grenade, there is no ambiguity about Glenn’s faith, such as what we see in the “is he a Muslim / is he a Christian” discussion regarding our President.”
Glenn Beck’s beliefs are not really the issue here. Individual salvation is known only by God and I doubt any honest person would argue that there are most likely both ‘saved’ and ‘unsaved’ people in every church, regardless of the label.
The REAL question is: Do we believe God is answering our prayers and working in our midst? Is my trust in God or in a man? Is it so hard for Evangelicals to believe God could use someone we would normally consider unorthodox? Speaking of unorthodox… look at John the Baptist!
I agree with you, Dave when you say that, ‘we live in a vastly different pluralistic society where Christianity is increasingly belittled and under siege.’ But don’t you believe God is able to defend his Word and bring His will to pass? Haven’t Christians been praying 2Chronicals 7:14 for years?
Why couldn’t God be answering those prayers by doing ‘a new thing’ which is ‘out of the box’ from what we would expect Him to do? Remember, throughout the Old Testament, God had His prophets do things that seemed ‘ungodly’ to the people of the time. And many quit following Jesus because His sayings were hard for His followers to accept. God IS doing a new thing in the USA!
Sure… we need to remain vigilant, prayerful, discerning, but we also need to remain flexible- ‘new wine skins’ and heed the warning of a Pharisee named Gamaliel (Acts 5:33-40) or we “may even be found fighting against God.”
Glenn Beck is no religious leader but he is encouraging the people of this nation to return to the virtues that this country was founded upon. NO ‘RELIGIOUS’ LEADER IS CURRENTLY DOING THAT! Where are they? God uses whoever is willing. Apparently no ‘Christian’ leader is either willing or able to pick up the ‘baton’ so perhaps God is using a flawed, humble, recovering alcoholic in spite of our objections.
Let us all keep praying and apply ‘Faith, Hope and Charity’ in our lives and in the lives we can each touch. “…for if this plan or action should be of men, it will be overthrown;” (Acts 5:38b) God works in mysterious ways… I pray He shows us His ways. May God bring Glory to Himself through the USA once again.
Thank you for your time.
Blessing to you all…
Charles
Charles,
I appreciate your thoughtful input.
It seems, however, that we are somehow “talking past each other.” And it seems you may be reading far more into my comments than what I said, implied or intended.
I have no doubt that the Lord can use anyone to accomplish his will – and as not limited by their theology or practice – as he repeatedly used even the Assyrians and Babylonians to carry out his plans. So, this is not about Mr. Beck’s role in current events nor about whether or not God might use him in some way.
Also, I have been very careful to neither attack Mr. Beck personally nor speculate on his spiritual condition – because as you note, only the Lord knows the heart. And I, too, have made exactly the same observations and comments concerning Mr. Beck’s background and salvation. I have heard his testimony and his presentation of the gospel – both of which were articulated in a clearly evangelical way. I think it is quite possible that because of his Catholic upbringing his understanding of who Jesus Christ is (namely God incarnate) could have been completely accurate 10 years ago when his life turned around. If at that time he did understand and appropriately respond to the gospel (which includes Jesus’ identity) then he was and is saved.
I don’t know that his theology is thoroughly Mormon or if he now holds to the Mormon view of Christ. However, if he does understand that the biblical view of Christ and the gospel is radically different, yet chooses to remain a Mormon, that is problematic. If he does not understand they are radically different, that, too, is problematic – precisely because, as he has said repeatedly, this is not about politics, but about “faith and God.” And because of this – and his countless programs with explicitly religious themes – he is a defacto religious leader. As I wrote in a personal email to an acquaintance on this topic, Al Mohler may be the current face of “evangelicalism” – but Glenn Beck is the current face of “evangelicals.” And, this is problematic because he consistently identifies himself as a Mormon and consistently acknowledges that there are differences between his church and the faith of evangelicals.
And, as I have noted, this is not about Glenn Beck per se. It is about evangelicals being broadly either unconcerned or illiterate about joining with a Mormon to rally around faith-centered issues.
I understand and appreciate the concept of co-belligerancy – but let’s not do it with “God” at the center if we are not talking about the same God.
I can stand with Mormons or Muslims to decry and protest human rights abuses or other immoral issues on grounds that are not primarily theological. However, if the Muslim says that we are doing this in the name of Allah, then I cannot join with him – because Allah is not the God of the Bible.
This may seem too nuanced for some. However, it is this lack of spiritual and theological nuance that has allowed evangelicalism to largely become little more than a civic religion and a political cause. We must take the long view – and be concerned about where this is going – and what we will leave the next generation.
Dave
Dave—
I’m submitting this a second time because an Error msg. occured with the CAPTCHA Code– again.
Sorry I couldn’t answer sooner.
Thank you once again for your response (November 17, 2010 at 6:38 pm). I believe this discussion boils down to how we answer the following questions:
1) Do we believe God is working today in America to answer our prayers concerning the direction our country is going?
2) Since we know God has used seemingly unorthodox methods in the past (Old and New Testament), do we believe He could be using someone evangelicals rightly consider unorthodox to do a job no evangelical leader is willing or able to do?
3) If we DO believe God works in mysterious ways, can we be flexible enough (without compromising truth) and strong enough to allow God to do things His way, using the opportunities He gives us to impact our culture? Or do we stand idly by?
4) If our answer to #2 is no, then what do we believe is the answer to the dilemma America is currently in? Is there hope for America? Will God intervene?
5) What can I personally do to help bring America back from the brink of destruction; spiritually and in every other way? Short term, long term?
We must ask these HARD questions of ourselves. The last one is perhaps the most important.
6) Do I truly trust in God alone, enough to step out into the darkness?
We cannot continue to stand by and do nothing. God will guide us if we step out in faith. We must put feet to our faith, trusting Him, one-step at a time.
Thank you, Dave and all who love America. God Bless America!
Charles
Charles,
I think perhaps the way you have framed these questions may actually highlight the heart of the problem I’m trying to define. Your questions are legitimate in their own right. God is in control and can use anyone and anything – but that doesn’t mean that we as evangelicals can or should identify with Beck – even though he is on track with many political / civic / social issues.
I think that perhaps the reason you and others think we can legitimately lock arms with Mr. Beck is because the differences between evangelical Christianity and Mormonism are not viewed as significant enough to justify not doing so if there is agreement on the problems with America.
Sometimes it helps to consider extremes to test the validity of a position. So, let me ask this – what if Mr. Beck were a Hindu who was saying exactly the same things? (He often cites Gandhi as someone to emulate concerning social issues / change.)
What if his message, perspective and opinions were exactly the same as they are now on every point, but his view of God and spirituality was that of Hinduism with its pantheism, millions of gods, reincarnation, karma, etc. – and yet he were to say, as he does now, that “this is all about faith and God? Could / should evangelicals join with him?
If you would say that we should not or cannot *as long as he insists on making it about faith and God* – then wouldn’t you acknowledge that the exact same problem exists with Mormonism – with its essentially limitless number of finite gods (all humans are progressing toward godhood) and the denial of the unique deity of Jesus Christ?
God may be using him – but we cannot join with him anymore than we could join the Babylonian army (even though I realize that it isn’t fair to compare Mr. Beck with the Babylonians, and I don’t mean to do that.)
Nor does this mean that we should idly stand by. It sets up a false dichotomy to suggest that we only have these two choices – join Beck or do nothing – or be guilty of doing nothing.
It is also a false dichotomy to suggest that if we don’t join Beck that somehow we don’t believe God can use unorthodox ways to accomplish his purposes.
I think I could also ask the question, “Is God so limited in answering our prayers and accomplishing his will that Christians must join with someone who has a pagan view of God – or at least explicitly continues to identify himself with a cult which does, even if he doesn’t personally?”
Could this not just as likely be a judgment of God and his condemning commentary on our country being in such a state of affairs when we must look to a “pop star” like Mr. Beck for spiritual guidance?
Is it possible that the situation is not rather comparable to when Israel called for “a king like all the other nations” – and God gave them Saul? Certainly God used Saul – but that simple fact does not mean that a believer should have aligned himself with Saul. The righteous believer should have waited for God to raise up “a man after his own heart” – and if Mr. Beck holds to even remotely Mormon views of the Father and the Son, then he is not that man – and we should wait on God and the one who truly is that man.
And you asked the question about what we can do to help bring America back from the brink of destruction – “spiritually and in every other way?” Spiritually? Beck? I don’t think this is a wise or godly idea.
Dave
Dave and Charles.
As a Mormon, I hate to see the confusion that this post has generated. The assertion that the Mormon belief that the Biblical teaching of Christian exaltation should be understood literally is used as evidence that the LDS Church is not only non-Christian, but pagan. This is just an absurd position to take.
Clearly, it’s self-serving for those who reject Christ’s work wherein he is proceeding to gather his elect, those who hear his voice, as he stated he would do in Isaiah 29 and Matthew 24.
Have you not heard that where the carcass is, there shall the eagles gather, and it is marvelous in our eyes?
If Glenn Beck were a true Evangelical, would he refuse to invite Jews, Catholics and Mormons to join in and follow him in the fight for freedom, liberty and justice for all, on grounds of his evangelical theology?
Please answer?
Doug,
Mormon doctrines are well-documented by many researchers, including former Mormons – so the charge of misrepresentation is not difficult to refute.
And yes, I do think it would be inappropriate for an evangelical to invite those of other faiths to join in a common cause if the foundation is explicitly “faith and God.”
If the basis is generally humanitarian and based on common views of morality, that is a different issue – although I realize that many might think this too nuanced.
If there are enough of us who believe the same to make a difference in a cause, then we can band together for that cause without joining those on theological grounds with whom we sharply disagree on theological grounds. If there aren’t enough of us who agree theologically to make a difference by banding together – then my lack of joining with a group that I disagree with theologically will have no practical difference and I can take the stand by myself.
Dear Michael Konicki, Charles Cochran and Dave,
Thank you Dave and all due respect to you for respectfully hosting this debate. Michael and Charles’ posts are enlightening and speak to me strongly. I identify with their philosophy because they suggest appropriate caution yet great enthusiasm. Glenn Beck is speaking to motivate Americans to know their constitution, their founding fathers and documents and to understand how that knowledge is relevant in our current situation in this country. Then, to build upon that knowledge we are clearly insisting on accountability help change the corrupt system that we have allowed to take hold. A nation whose elites ignore their constituents, insist they know better without any lay advisors and act without answerability while increasing their power is no longer acceptable. It was not tolerated to the point that the recent election is a resounding statement not made since the 30′s.
I am a Mormon. I believe in Christ and depend on the atonement for forgiveness of my sins in my life. So called ‘researched’ literature can be quoted on and again, yet it does not reduce my testimony of Christ nor shake my faith in him. Some can say that I believe in a false God yet I counter and say I believe in the one true God of the Bible with all my might, mind and strength.
Reliance, cooperation and interdependence of one faith on another is critical in the effort to rescue America from the brink. Glenn is educating us politically, I rely on him for that education not for his religious references. He is stirring us to political action which we have have not known how to begin. As Charles reminds, “NO ‘RELIGIOUS’ LEADER IS CURRENTLY DOING THAT! Where are they? God uses whoever is willing. Apparently no ‘Christian’ leader is either willing or able to pick up the ‘baton’ so perhaps God is using a flawed, humble, recovering alcoholic in spite of our objections.”
I believe Michael and Charles’ well stated points make a stronger case for listening to the ideas that Glenn Beck introduces. I am able to make an informed decision whether to adopt them or not. Thank you both, deeply, for your logic and direction.
shannon
Dear Shannon,
I’m not sure why the main point of my article and the main point of my comments keep getting missed and/or lost in the overall discussion.
Let me once again clearly state what they are not, because for some reason is these to which many are repeatedly being responding:
1. My point is not and has never been to question the sincerity of the faith of Glenn Beck.
2. My point is not and has never been to question the sincerity of the faith of any given Mormon.
3. My point is not and has never been to question the validity or accuracy of what Mr. Beck says in regard to either his analysis or proposed solutions for the problems this country faces.
4. My point is not and has never been to suggest that any given evangelical should not listen to Mr. Beck’s analysis or proposed solutions, consider them carefully and personally implement most of them in his or her life. As I have stated numerous times – I substantially agree with Mr. Beck on virtually every point.
5. My point is not and has never been to suggest that there should be no cooperation among honest, hard-working, patriotic Americans to work to bring our country back from the brink.
I hope this helps cut through the “fog of discussion”
My primary point is and has always been:
1. It is inappropriate for evangelicals to lock arms together at the level of the “Black-Robed Regiment” to make a statement along with Mr. Beck that this is “not about politics, but is all about faith and God” – when their is fundamental and irreconcilable differences between Mormonism and evangelicalism about the very nature of the God who is being explicitly invoked as being the very center of everything and rallying point. The God of the Bible as understood historically by evangelicals and as understood by Mormons are not only different – but contradictory – to the point that for each group, the other group’s God is a pagan deity.
2. This being the case, for evangelicals to embrace Mr. Beck’s leadership which has God as the common ground, rather than simply the principles in question, is problematic because it means that they must either wrongly think the views of God are sufficiently compatible to regard them as the essentially the same – or to say that it doesn’t matter because of the end in view. It’s not a matter of the end justifying the means, because in this case the end is the means.
The problem is not necessarily with Glenn Beck personally. If his understanding and belief is that there is exactly and only one God, eternally existent in three persons, and that those persons are the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit – then he should make this unambiguously clear and renounce Mormonism (in the kindest terms possible).
And for precisely the same reason, he should not include Muslim Imams in the Black-Robed Regiment either because Allah is not the God of the Bible – and they reject and deny the deity of Christ as God’s Son.
OR, alternatively, he should rephrase this so that it only about civic and patriotic duty, honesty and integrity, love and compassion, as the common ground (which we can agree on) and refrain from making this exclusively about “faith and God” as the central rallying point.
As a side note, since you brought up individual salvation: For any individual Mormon (and this is not what the original post was about): If your faith is in the God and Jesus Christ of the Bible then that is what is necessary for salvation. However, if your faith is in a God who was once Adam (“as Adam was we were, as Adam is we can become”) and a Jesus who is not eternally God, but rather a created being who is the spiritual brother of Lucifer – there is no salvation to be found through faith in such a person – because this God and Jesus is different from the God and Jesus of the Bible. Only you know how this applies to you.
Dave
Dave, Doug, Michael Konicki, Shannon—
and all who are enjoying this challenging discourse…
Blessings to you all! Thank you for involvement and response.
I fully understand and agree with you, Dave, concerning the real differences that exist between Mormons and Evangelicals theologically. To re-quote Dr. Garlo from one of my earlier posts, “…[W]e are not theological brothers and sisters. But we are friends and neighbors.”
The following is meant only to inform, not offend…
As you clearly stated in your last post Dave, the Mormon Jesus is a man who became a god – the Biblical Jesus is and always has been God, the second person of the eternally existent Trinity (God in Three Persons, not three gods). Unfortunately, some Mormons are not aware of this doctrine. But I digress.
I liked your Hindu / Mormonism example (Hindu and Mormon theology believe in many gods) because it helped me see the center of our disagreement.
1) You quote Mr. Beck’s phrase “faith and God,” a lot, saying that with that single phrase, he has made this whole thing a religious movement.
2) You stated that by default, Glenn Beck is it’s spiritual leader.
3) Therefore, you object to Evangelicals and their pastors standing arm in arm with him.
4) You suggested that it is spiritually dangerous for individuals and the nation to partake in this movement because of Mr. Beck’s problematic Mormon association.
Okay… If I looked at this whole thing from purely a spiritual standpoint, I would have to agree. That seems to be your view and I respect that. The importance of a Biblically sound, spiritual worldview cannot be overstated. It is the center of my beliefs.
However, I respectfully disagree. Here is why.
1) No matter what Glenn Beck or anyone else says; this IS a political movement, not just a spiritual one. The whole concept of “faith and God” is the basis of our political system, our freedoms.
2) Religion (not just Christianity) is part and parcel of this nation’s DNA from a moral and virtue standpoint, therefore it’s an important factor in taking our country back.
3) Some of the Founding Fathers were Deists. That didn’t stop the orthodox Christian Founding Fathers from uniting with them to found this great country. To say Deism is any better than Mormonism is preposterous. People of other faiths also lived in the Colonies.
4) This country cannot recover without a return to moral and virtuous values.
5) It may be that we need another Great Awakening/Revival to bring America back to where she needs to be.
If you are correct, Dave, and this whole thing is only spiritual and not actually political… then we are in trouble. All of the faithful in our churches need to PRAY, PRAY, PRAY. However, if there is an element of politics in it as I suspect, we still need to PRAY, PRAY, PRAY.
I doubt that we will ever come to a point where we all agree completely, however, the mood, tone and kindness with which we have been able to discuss this potentially divisive issue, is refreshing.
Thank you, Dave. Thank you, all. More later…
— Blessings…
Charles
Charles,
I, too, appreciate the healthy dialog – which demonstrates that brothers in Christ (and anyone, I would say) – can do this without quickly descending into vitriolic personal attacks.
I definitely agree that it is also political. However, my point in repeatedly noting the “faith and God” phrase is that it was Glenn Beck who made it a point prior to and on the day of 9/12 that it was not to be political – but “all about faith and God” – his words on 9/14 at the beginning of his show.
I didn’t say that Americans shouldn’t participate in this movement. I said that evangelicals shouldn’t lock arms with Beck as long as he insists that it is about “faith and God.”
If he were not making this the philosophical centerpiece, as I have also noted, I could join with him publicly – even as I do privately in principle.
And I would dare say that a significant number of evangelicals would absolutely not do so if he were Hindu and explicitly and repeatedly said this is about faith and God.
And given what men like Richard Land and James Dobson have said about his spirituality and bold spiritual statements, others have also made this spiritual. It is political, without question – but it is being driven by spiritual ideology.
Given this – and the fact that I don’t think evangelicals would join with him if he were Hindu using the same spiritual framework – this means that for most, it is as much about spirituality as it is about politics.
This also means that he is providing a large measure of spiritual leadership and direction.
My underlying concern is that for many evangelicals, who are becoming more biblically illiterate by the day, Mormonism is being increasingly seen as theologically compatible with evangelicalism. This is also being driven by the growing tendency for evangelicals to no longer hold to the exclusivity of biblical Christianity and faith in the biblical Christ as the only way of salvation.
I would like to reiterate that as much as God is capable of using Mr. Beck, he is just as capable of using believers who will not sell their birthright for a bowl of porridge to accomplish an even greater end for the good of this country.
I suppose that we will probably not persuade the other, but I do think and hope that perhaps we have provided some service to those who might come across my article and these comments.
Dave
Dave you are a gentleman. Thank you.
Dave wrote:
As a Mormon, I agree with Dave that seeing Evangelicalism, or traditional Christianity, as theologically compatible with Mormonism, is a mistake. They are not compatible. The theology of the Mormons is that the only salvation, which remains for the Gentiles, is for them to be identified in the same covenant, and to worship at the same altar with Israel. In short, they must come to the same standard; for there shall be one Lord, and his name one, and He shall be king over all the earth.
The testimony of the Mormons is that God is proceeding to do the marvelous work and wonder that he promised to do, according to the words of Isaiah. A key part of this marvelous work, the wonder of it all, is the testimony of Jesus Christ, which the Lord has prepared and preserved, in a sealed book, to sweep the earth with truth, to gather out his elect, all those who will hear his voice, to gather them to Zion.
While it is true that, as a result of this marvelous work and wonder, the wisdom of the wise shall perish, and the scorner shall be consumed, it is also true that the ears of the deaf shall hear the words of the sealed book and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity and out of darkness, the meek also shall increase their joy in the Lord, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel, according to the words of the prophet.
I presume Glenn Beck knows this, but he cannot teach it on his program, so he does what he can do – call everyone to faith in God, in whatever way that faith may define God for them. For the traditional Christian world, the faith that defines God holds to the concept of the Trinity; For the Jews, the faith that defines God is found in the Torah. For Muslims, the faith that defines God is found in the Koran. For Mormons, the faith that defines God is found in the words of the living prophets, ordained of God, who testify of Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of the Father, who is full of grace and truth.
What you seem to be implying, Dave, is that Beck’s call to faith in God is a call to his faith in God, a faith which rejects the central concept of traditional Christianity, the Trinity, among other things.
But I don’t think this is what he is doing at all. GB is not proselytizing for the Mormon faith, even though it might seem like it at times, since the Mormon concepts of God, freedom and liberty are inseparably connected with the land of America: He can’t talk about what it takes to keep America free, without referring to God, who is the author of our liberty here in America.
America is special in the eyes of Mormons. For them, Jesus Christ is the God of the whole earth, but especially of America. He has declared that the inhabitants of this land shall serve him, the God of the land, or be swept off the land when they are fully ripened in iniquity.
But GB does not state this. Again, because he wouldn’t be allowed to do it, but what he can do is plead with Americans to repent – regardless of their faith. God does not say that Evangelicals will be swept off the land, or Jews, or Muslims, only the wicked – those who reject Christ and work wickedness before him. As the Bible says, “The Lord trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.”
Doug,
Obviously, I believe that the Mormon theology you have noted is demonstrably unbiblical on any number of important points and not the least because it relies on the testimony of a self-proclaimed prophet who has been discredited innumerable times as a false prophet.
However, the point of my post and my subsequent comments is not to deal with Mormon theology at an exegetical level. I plan to do so at some point in the future, at which time I will be willing to entertain and interact with posts such as yours in detail. Until then, however, before I will approve future posts that go into this kind of detail into the Mormon “gospel” – I will ask that this content be edited out so that the comments stay more closely on-topic.
I think it would be helpful if others would not read more into my posts than what I write – or infer things that I don’t affirm – or suggest I am implying things I don’t state explicitly.
I have not implied that “Beck’s call to faith in God is a call to his faith in God” – nor do I think that is what he is doing. I see it exactly as you have stated it – which is precisely why it is just as problematic as if he were calling people to his faith as a Mormon – because he is calling for people to faith in *their* version of God. This is a problem for at least two reasons: 1) his view of God must be very generic to be able to accommodate so many diverse views of God as essentially compatible with one another and with his view. That is neither the biblical nor the Mormon view of God. 2) Because this is not a biblical view of God, he is calling people to faith in essentially any god – which is paganism, idolatry, heresy and blasphemy. This should be no small thing for either Mormons or evangelicals – and should therefore certainly not be a rallying point.
Regarding repenting – to whom, which God are Americans to repent? Certainly not all to the same God – for if it were – then it would have to be to Beck’s God – which brings us full circle. It is impossible to simply repent in some sort of undefined generic way “into the air.” The biblical meaning of “repent” is “about face” – turning from one’s self and one’s ways to God and His ways – which once again begs the question, “which God?”
So, no matter how many times we go around this barn, it keeps coming back to the very issues that I originally brought up in the article – and why evangelicals cannot rally with him as long as he insists it is about faith and God.
However, this could be very easily resolved in one of two ways:
1) By Mr. Beck renouncing either his Mormon view of God or his personal apparently more generic view of God, in favor of an explicitly biblical view of the one unique triune God. However, this would alienate everyone except evangelicals.
2) By Mr. Beck completely dropping the foundational philosophical point about this being about “faith and God” – and simply change it to being “all about honor, honesty, integrity and uprightness of character.” Everyone could agree on this and rally around this philosophy without having to compromise personal theological convictions. This is obviously the most practical solution – and the most acceptable one.
Dave
Hi Dave,
If I understand correctly then, you think that a call to America to return to honor, honesty, integrity and uprightness of character, would not qualify as acts of repentance, motivated by faith in God.
I was under the impression that the Gods of Protestantism, Catholicism, Judaism and Islam would all be pleased with such reform. I know the God of Mormonism would be. (I’m just saying. We both know there is only one God!)
To urge people to make this change without reference to God, who is offended by dishonor, dishonesty, lies and deceit, and not to attribute the troubles, which America finds itself in, as a manifestation of his judgments upon us, seems to me to be more of an atheistic position, than a theistic one.
Interestingly enough, if, as the atheist believes, every man prospers according to the management of the creature, I don’t see why he would be all that motivated to concern himself with the morality of the nation, just its mores, which might find abortion, fornication, homosexuality, profanity, sabbath breaking, etc. as acceptable behavior.
How can we not see that, theological differences not withstanding, it’s the iniquity of Americans and their government that is the problem we face. I believe that we should be able to cry repentance to one another, regardless of our theological positions.
If I had my druthers, a Mormon like GB would proclaim the gospel of Christ, but if he did, there would be no GB Show. As it is, we are all discussing repentance. That’s a good thing. We might not be able to reach individual salvation on that basis, but I believe Nineveh class repentance would gain the nation reprieve from the judgments of God that are now coming upon it.
Doug,
I think we may be starting to beat this thing to death.
Beyond that, I think you missed my point. Of course, a genuine return to honesty and integrity can only be effected by a work of God – that results in a turn to him. But since everyone of faith understands this, this dimension can be left at the private level and kept out of the public forum – as it relates to politics.
Again, if you don’t do this – then you have to present God as being equally accepting of all notions of who he is and what he is like – which is no God at all – at least not the God of the Bible. So, again, you’re back to the problem of encouraging people to turn to a god that is different from the God of the Bible. How can someone who believes in him do that?
Actually, I have GB very clearly present the gospel of Jesus Christ in a very biblical way – using explicitly evangelical language. There are many things he says that sound far more evangelical than Mormon. I could speculate on how or why this might be – but I will resist doing so because it would come dangerously close to judging.
I also don’t have any problem whatsoever with anyone being challenged to repentance by anyone else – no matter who they are. And I have stated time and again, that the problem is not with GB. I have no problem with him, what he does or what he believes. I’m glad for the work he has done and the things he has said concerning the founding of the country and his desire to have people return to following the constitution.
My only point has always been and continues to be that whatever an evangelical believer’s response to him and his message might be, it should necessarily be short of becoming part of his black-robed regiment – and looking to him as one of the spiritual leaders of the next great spiritual awakening in America.
It is one thing if he is a catalyst and an inspiration – that could be good. It is another thing altogether if he is a spiritual leader – which he cannot be for evangelicals.
Dave
I agree, Dave. All that can be said has probably been said by now. For what it’s worth, though, Mormons don’t consider GB to be their spiritual leader either (for one thing, a lot of them wish he would clean up his language.)
But the Book of Mormon prophet Moroni warned that the murderous combinations that have destroyed ancient civilizations in the past are now among us, and that when we see it, God commands us not to suffer them to get above us, or woe unto this nation because of it.
So, as GB is helping people wake up and see the reality of the communist/fascist/bankster combinations that seek to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations and countries and bring to pass the destruction of all people, more power to him. I, for one, pray for him.
That is a good thing, of course, and I would be happy if he could just wake up the Mormons to this danger, let alone the Evangelicals.
But if an Evangelical like Huckabee can step up and call the Evangelicals to awake to a sense of their awful situation, and to exercise faith and trust in God to help us resist this evil, I’m all for him too.
I would accept his leadership in that, without any qualms arising because of his different theological beliefs. I would not be afraid that, by so doing, he was going to erase the theological distinctions in the minds of Mormons that must be made, when it comes to preaching the restored gospel.
So, peace brother. Let’s rejoice in our knowledge of Christ and his saving power, and go to with our might, defending our homes, our wives and our children that we might preserve them from the hands of our enemies; and also that we might preserve our rights and our privileges, yea, and also our liberty, that we might worship God according to our desires.
Sorry, Doug. I overlooked this in my Inbox and didn’t get it approved.
Interesting forum – though the bottom line is clear and does not split hairs. If GB would just stick with informing America about the relevant social and political issues and not profess to have the “answer”, all good Americans could rally around the truth and come to their own spiritual conclusions. As a pastor I too am troubled by his foray into spiritual matters.
Thanks for your comments, Steve. I agree with your final analysis.